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Is the band losing fans?
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paranoidmexican
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 9:30 pm    Post subject: Is the band losing fans?  Reply with quote

from Brazil Under Ice (link below)

http://www.icedearth.com.br/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4652

What got my attention, and the attention of some people is that IE has a 2 for 1 ticket deal for the show in Chicago (like they haven't played there 10000000 times) Are not enough people going to shows? Do fans think the setlist is weak and never changes? Is it because of the economy? Or Jon just thinks that Chicago fans deserve a good deal? Here's some posts that I found interesting.


BurntOfferings666 wrote:
Maybe.....I accredit it to a few things

1.  The metal scene in North America is shifting to new(er) bands


2.  The band lost fans when Matt left and Ripper joined

3.  The band lost fans when Matt rejoined and Ripper left

4.  The bands sound has switched from the aggressive power-thrash of old to what some nut has deemed more fan-friendly (ummmm HELLO!  Last I checked everyone here wants to hear more off Bo and NotS live, than any other albums)

5.  Writing music for the sake of selling records/being (somewhat) mainstream/pop is not what generates loyal fans (it does however generate the almighty dollar)

6.  No steady lineup - no one wants to be affiliated with the seeminglessly never-ending high school drama that has become Iced Earth.

7.  Jon had kids

8.  Jon got married

9.  Jon got married and had kids

10.  Now Jon writes music for kids instead of writing from the experiences of his early angst filled youth.

Anyone else have anything to add?


I agree with most of this one personally

Replica of Life wrote:
Jon totally failed.

He went into a more orchestral, gay euro power metal kind of direction with the last couple of albums, when gay european power metal was clearly on its way down and the new 'trend' in the traditional camp was a return to more aggressive real metal (see the resurging thrash scene, for instance).

He tried to follow a trend instead of just sticking to his guns, so now he lost both the old fans, and the few new ones he gained with those albums, as the former ones would rather stick their face in a hot brazier than listent of his sorry interpretation of orchestral and epic arrangements, and the latter moved on to other trends.

A attribute the good sales of TGB mainly to the fact of Ripper joining, and, to a lesser extent, and only in the US, to fans being drawn to the patriotic theme of the album. Horror Show sold good because the US metal underground had been bewing in th years since Something Wicked with more and more fans discovering IE by hearsay. And it also happened to be the first album that Century Media did some promotional work for in the states.


[/end rant]


I don't think Jon tried to follow a trend to be trendy, but maybe he's been listening to these kind of bands too much?

Bulletproof wrote:
Something has to be done about those kids.  I wonder how long they'll stay in the Schaffer family lineup before they're fired.


This one I just thought was plain funny...lol

The_Judas_Priest wrote:
Wicked One wrote:
A metal song full of hope and optimism?!?  Seriously, I'm not saying it's a bad song.

Come What May is hardly hopeful and optimistic... It's still reiterating that mankind is fucked and it still di$$es our straight asses in the first couple of verses. It's far from the Stratovarius/Avian messages of rainbow dreams of hope and unicorns peace.

But I agree with you guys. Jon is out of his element here. It's the same old shit that always happens in music. An artist establishes a fanbase with a certain style or a particular album that is truly unique. Then, after gaining somewhat of a following, they change their style. It must be the nature of the artist because so many of them do it.

As far as alienating fans goes, I'm a huge fan of the early days (Purgatory - Burnt Offerings) and the Ripper days while remaining an average fan of the Barlow era (TDS - HS) so I can cover most aspects of being alienated here. For one, my tastes conflict themselves. What it boils down to is music and the way I see it is, the setlist is heavy on Ripper era material.

Now, Jon needs to realise that the 'Euro' fans not only disliked Tim's job on vocals but they probably disliked the actual music itself. Tim's fans were arguably more straightforward metal/hard rock fans and the wankery of Framing Armageddon (listen to Cataclysm) probably deterred those guys. Obviously fans of the early shit have already been alienated if not by TDS back in the day and the abomination of Horror Show compared to those original badass Horror Show tapes but they were ultimately alienated by Framing Armageddon also. What you're left with are the Barlow-only fans who fell for the band through his emotional baritone and his delivery on songs like AQOH, Melancholy and The Phantom Opera Ghost. Now you've alienated them too. Because you release a shittier version of the same album in TCOM while branding it as Matt Barlow's triumphant tr00 metal return? It is just a shit version of Framing Armageddon that has vocal melodies penned for Tim Owens and Jon was too fucking lazy to kick them down a few notches so Matt could excel at what he does best. So you have a poor album that fails to really satisfy anyone, old school fans, original Barlow fans and Ripper fans. The Plumber Joe IE fan that just buys up everything is happy, though and no one can deny that there are a few of them around. Heck, I could be classified as one of those.

But you have this album right? So you go on tour supporting the album and promoting it. You are trying to sell this album, right? WRONG. You're selling the RIPPER ERA ALBUMS NOW, BITCH. Catch this logic; in doing what 'everyone' wanted by bringing back Matt, Jon utilises this to the fullest by not only completely ignoring the new studio album that has been released but also by ignoring the original Barlow era altogether! What you're left with is a The Best Of The Ripper Years setlist... with Matt singing!!!111

So who the fuck is going to be happy with that?! Sorry if this post seemed.. blurred but I am in fact quite drunk at 7:50AM.

Let's review who has been alienated:

Old school fans (Self-titled through Burnt Offerings)
Matt Barlow fans (The Dark Saga through Horror Show including TCOM)
Tim Owens fans (TGB through FA including the average Joe metalhead who ain't got no time for no symphony Arabic world music bullshit)
The record label (The Crucible Of Man you guys remember that album? I actually don't)
Ten Thousand Strong (Listen to Matt trying this on the bootlegs)
The people who attend the shows (Expecting to perhaps hear some new songs that they haven't heard before or expecting the hear a The Best Of Barlow setlist coinciding with the blazingly obvious return of Matt Barlow perhaps?)

Let's review who would still actually go to see Iced Earth live:
Iced Earth fans (They probably don't give a fuck and are just glad that they can see their favourite band perform live)
Average Joe Metalhead (They go to every show anyway)
Internet Kids (The ones who probably downloaded Melancholy and 'Slednecks' from P2P and take it upon themselves to attend the show boasting full knowledge of the band and an abrasive attitude to the guys who actually sport the merchandise and keep it tr00)
The_Judas_Priest (I'm sure he would like to see Iced Earth play live at least once so he has grounds to back up these outlandish claims and also because Iced Earth is his third favourite band of all time)

[/drunkensplendour][/rant]


This one was my favorite, hit right on target even if he was a little drunk.


Now this isn't meant to disrespect Jon or the band, I'd still kill to see them live, Iced Earth is my favorite band. I hope I don't get in trouble for this, but it had to be said.
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The Wicked One
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think Iced Earth is losing fans.

There are ppl who like music for being music. I still like what Iced Earth offers.
the arab shit was for the conceptual nature of the album. Set and the Ankh staff he carries are Egyptian references. Guess the dominant ethnicity for Egypt? ARABS!!!
After  TCOM there will not be any more of that.

The Ripper/Barlow war is annoying. Even if you like either singer more, you will still listen to the material with that singer, making you a fan.

I don't care if Jon is an asshole. I like the music. I don't care who is singing, just as long as the singer doesn't suck live and still have the studio and live recordings of the previous singers. I'll go to the shows.
If Gene Adam somehow came back into the band and started singing everything I'd still be a fan. I may not like it as much but who knows?

The 'metal scene' is what WE make it. So the easy answer is if you don't like it CHANGE it. "yes we can" XD

Its true that usually a band starting out will sometimes be more creative and stronger  in every aspect later on because they have to try harder to be noticed. Once secured, there is no need to push yourself as hard living in the van when you finally have a house, security and a recording studio having your back.

In the end it all depends on the ambition of the artist. Jon still has some left.

I don't think Jon wanted to be commercialized. Its never been about the almighty dollar, never will be.

'huger' acts have had as many or more lineup changes in their bands.
and in Iced Earth's case, they now have 2 consistent members other than Jon. and hopefully Troy and Freddie stay.

the whole trendy thing is hogwash. Jon has in countless interviews stated that he barely keeps up with anything int the music scene.
The only stuff I can see him listening to is maybe the bands that open and support IE's headlining or the headliners IE is supporting.
And so far those bands have not been the 'euro-gay power metal bands'.

has Iced Earth started to sound like LOG, Trivium, Saviors, Into Eternity, Divine Heresy, A Life Once Lost ect ect? FUCK NO!
When some1 else is headlining its usually a band that Iced Earth has as an influence already. So nothing changes.
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sadly, I believe they are. I read review's online of the more recent albums. They say they wish the thrash days of NOTS and Burnt Offerings. People giving the new albums horrible ratings, and I mean horrible. Some do believe the band is dead, they are losing fans, yes.
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Kanadwen
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This topic is garbage. I stopped reading after the middle of The_Judas_Priest's shit.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kanadwen wrote:
This topic is garbage. I stopped reading after the middle of The_Judas_Priest's shit.


exactly....


look, my oppinion is, I don't think they are losing their fans they got a few new ones with the last two albums...
Okay I have to admit, that maybe some of the old fans could be dissapointed by the change of sounds or riffs that happened....
I know some IE fans, also a few of my friends, that think that The Crucible of Man album is weak, really weak, and okay, that is their oppinion, but NO ONE of them, stopped listening IE or something, yesterday we just looked at the graspop live stuff, and we where of our shoes...

No mather what, I know that they kick ass when the play live, cause they are still as fast as they where before, and just cause Schaffer created a slower, more epic album and tried to make the sound fit together with his story, its not a reason for my to quit listening IE. JON SCHAFFER IS IE, and he can do whatever the fuck he wants, and if he wants to change the sound or his lineup or his underwear...he CAN do it cause he IS the fuckin' man himself.

A reason that is a big thing, is the Ripper Barlow vs, that nowdays takes far to often plays in some forums...
Many left when Barlow left, I admit that, cause Tim wasn't everyones favourite, at least because of his way of singing, wich is great if you ask me, but its completely different from what barlow used to do....
This is the only reason I accept as an answer from an IE fan, that he can not cope with the change of singers, I understand that, cause the singer is a very important part of the band.

And to ALL the "fans", that stopped listening IE cause of the last albums, or cause Jon is married, or cause Jon is whatever....
FUCK you, you are no real fans to me, cause if you are such a pussy, that you quit listening a band, just cause you don't like ONE album or two, you are no real fan, you never were. IE is not just the last years, it is all the years and albums before to, do never forget that. And if you don't like, what Jon is doing, if you don't like the lineup, if you don't like the new songs, if you don't like the setlist and don't like Barlow....well than fuck off, we never needed you anyway.

THAT has to be said
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SnakeBite
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I mostly agree with Feaněs, since I don´t think that they are losing fans, or at least not that much.

Maybe some of the old fans, who really loved the band´s first three records for their unique style and thrashy elements stopped listening to the new stuff, but I don´t think that there is a huge loss of fans.
I´m pretty sure that there are still enough people who enjoy listeningto Iced Earth records, no matter if the album is called Night of the Stormrider or Crucible of Man.

I myself am one of those fans who just loves Iced Earth´s music. They are my favorite band and I can enjoy the older records just as much as the newer ones. I even know people who think that the last three records are better than anything Iced Earth has ever done.

Let´s face it: If you are a huge fan of a band you will likely stay loyal to their music. This doesn´t mean that you have to like every single record or every single live show or whatever, but I´m pretty sure Iced Earth still has enough loyal fans who support the band 100% (with me being one of them).


Feaněs wrote:
And to ALL the "fans", that stopped listening IE cause of the last albums, or cause Jon is married, or cause Jon is whatever....
FUCK you, you are no real fans to me, cause if you are such a pussy, that you quit listening a band, just cause you don't like ONE album or two, you are no real fan, you never were.


100% agree. I know a lot of people who suddelny stopped listening to a band just because they didn´t like their latest record and all of the sudden this band was not good anymore. I just hate people who don´t like a particular band anymore just because of one album.
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Dante
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Would Jon do something like this if IE was loosing fans? NO.
Would he do it only in Chicago? NO.
Is IE loosing fans? NO.
Do I think that IE should go back to a more thrashier style? YES.
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also believe the should go back to thier more thrash style. Although I enjoy every IE album, I hope Jon goes back a little to create more thrash songs.
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Dante
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And why aren't people start a thread that says "Is Iced Earth gaining fans" when they are moving they're gigs to larger venues?!
That has happened at least twice this tour and 2 for 1 tickets has only happened once!
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Feaněs wrote:
JON SCHAFFER IS IE, and he can do whatever the fuck he wants, and if he wants to change the sound or his lineup or his underwear...he CAN do it cause he IS the fuckin' man himself.
I TOTALY agree. Jon owns IE.

Feaněs wrote:
And to ALL the "fans", that stopped listening IE cause of the last albums, or cause Jon is married, or cause Jon is whatever....

LOL.
Jon had kids. Jon got married. Jon had kids and got married.
SO FUCKING WHAT? He is also human, isn't he? I mean, I think that's okay and I'm secretly in love with him. Just kidding XD
But serious. He has rights to live his life on the way HE and ONLY HE wants.

Jon will ALWAYS have my full support.

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