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Kanadwen

Election '08 & 9/11

Anybody watching it ATM? Looks like Obama is going to win!
Kanadwen

Edit: He won, new president is Obama!
Set Abominae

Yeah. I voted McCain. Only good thing I can see out of this is the decriminalization of marijuana
Stormrider

I should have registered to vote, would have voted for McCain, not sure if it would have helped. But history is made, the worlds first US President who is black (or kinda black anyway). Also will probably the worlds quickest assassination, lots of racists still in the world and they don't want a black pres regardless if he will be good or not. Me I don't care though I wanted McCain to win so I can look at Palin more, she is a hell of a MILF!!! Shwing!
paranoidmexican

i didn't vote. Lets hope Obama does a good job
Set Abominae

WHAT IF OBAMA IS SET ABOMINAE?
Feaněs

well I think we don't have to worry about THAT, cause he don't looks like a Set...


beside, no one of you seems to like obama a lot....
paranoidmexican

Set Abominae wrote:
WHAT IF OBAMA IS SET ABOMINAE?


then we're fucked? or maybe us IE fans will be spared
Aggelos Poneros

-.-

Why don't you guys like Obama? Only because of Sarah Palin? Very Happy
Or his skin? Something 3rd?
Stormrider

Obama is a terrorist muslim in disquise that's why I don't like him. But oh well. Look here's a transcript of his acceptance speech..

"I would like to take this opportunity to thank the American people for putting their trust in me and electing me to lead them. By the way, you know all those lunatics who called me a terrorist the past couple months? Turns out they were telling the truth. Along with your government-issued copy of the Koran, you will also be receiving your new Muslim name in the mail some time in the next two months. Also, via national lottery, 10,000 lucky citizens will be trained as pilots and forced to fly into synagogues all over Jerusalem. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm meeting William Ayers at the Empire State Building in 30 minutes. I hope he remembers the "cotton candy." Praise Allah."

Set Abominae wrote:
WHAT IF OBAMA IS SET ABOMINAE?

So that would be Set Obamanae?
Feaněs

...I mean, not that I would understand something about it, cause I'm living in europe, ya know, only news I get are from the media, so tell me why would you've voted McCain?
Stormrider

Feaněs wrote:
...I mean, not that I would understand something about it, cause I'm living in europe, ya know, only news I get are from the media, so tell me why would you've voted McCain?


Honestly I knew nothing about either campaign, and still don't. Just that Obama IS in fact associated with a racist priest (a black priest who is racist against whites), and has had ties to terrorist type folks, those are facts. Would that have an impact on his Presidency, I don't know. So it's not racially motivated, hell to me he's barely black at all.

As for McCain I know nothing about him really, don't know what he was promising. Otherwise my voting would have been strictly MILF based, in other words, the hot MILF Palin!! Of course voting that way is no good, but I never registered so I never voted. Been able to register to vote for 20 years now and still hadn't done it. Oh well.
Aggelos Poneros

It's Kur'an, not Koran -.-

P.s. You all talk about terrorist and Kur'an, but has anybody actulay read the Kur'an? Well od course not.
So FUCK OFF with that, okay? When somebody read the Kur'an let me know, then we can talk.
And one more thing - terrorsits don't exist. They have been created by G7 (at the time when they were only G7) mainly by the USA. SO FUCK OFF ALL OF YOU WITH THAT TOO.

P.p.s. Guys, face with one more thing - Osama Bin Laden doesn't exist.

P.p.p.s You really acty like puppets in arms of stupid politicans. Can't you think with your head and not belive in shit they're telling to us?!

P.p.p.p.s. I'd also like to write my opinion about  Spetember 11 but I'm pretty sure somebody would kill me, so I'll keep my mouth shout for some time Razz

P.p.p.p.p.s. Propaganda lives us blinded. TV and media have got the greatest power of brainwashing - and Hitler knew it.

P.p.p.p.p.p.s. WHY THE FUCK MUST WE KILL OUR OWN KIND IN THE STUPID WAR FOR OIL?!
It was better in Iraq when Hussein was the president. Or dictator. Choose which suits to you.
Stormrider

" terrorsits don't exist. They have been created by G7 (at the time when they were only G7) mainly by the USA."

That's bull and you know it. Terrorists are NOT from America nor created by Americans. And no I will not read the Koran (no matter how it's spelled) cause I don't want to be associated with terrorists. Not all Muslims are terrorists but a lot are or want to be, that is A FACT. But let's try to be cool about this (And I admit I got pissed at your comments but I will try to remain calm, nor tell you not to state your opinions cause that would be wrong of me or anyone else. I can see we definitely do have different opinions, not saying yours is wrong and mine is right, we both really don't know)

I do agree though that the war in Iraq is bogus should have stayed in Afghanistan, to take revenge on the terrorists for 9/11 like originally planned (and no it was not never has been Bush! it was terrorists NON US terrorists)

One last thing to this comment "WHY THE FUCK MUST WE KILL OUR OWN KIND IN THE STUPID WAR FOR OIL?! " I don't get it, we are not killing Americans, we are killing Iraqians or whatever they are called. They are killing us too but we are not killing our own kind, just the foreigners. But I do agree it's stupid to go to war for oil.
Aggelos Poneros

One of the most important things I wanted to say was that the most of muslims are not terrorsit and no, they don't want to be. Allah doesn't want that, trust me. I didn't say Americans are terrorist or something like that then that America created terrorists. My next line was about media - Americas media created terrrorists.
When I'm talking about killing our own kind I think on killing humans. Or you want to say that Iraqians aren't humans?!

"I do agree though that the war in Iraq is bogus should have stayed in Afghanistan, to take revenge on the terrorists for 9/11 like originally planned (and no it was not never has been Bush! it was terrorists NON US terrorists)" - Oh. My. God. And that's my only comment 'cause I don't wan t to be crucifixed.

"That's bull and you know it. Terrorists are NOT from America nor created by Americans. And no I will not read the Koran (no matter how it's spelled) cause I don't want to be associated with terrorists."
My father is muslim and I read the Kur'an - does it mean I am also the terrorist?!
Dante

Stormrider wrote:
" terrorsits don't exist. They have been created by G7 (at the time when they were only G7) mainly by the USA."

That's bull and you know it. Terrorists are NOT from America nor created by Americans. And no I will not read the Koran (no matter how it's spelled) cause I don't want to be associated with terrorists. Not all Muslims are terrorists but a lot are or want to be, that is A FACT. But let's try to be cool about this (And I admit I got pissed at your comments but I will try to remain calm, nor tell you not to state your opinions cause that would be wrong of me or anyone else. I can see we definitely do have different opinions, not saying yours is wrong and mine is right, we both really don't know)

I do agree though that the war in Iraq is bogus should have stayed in Afghanistan, to take revenge on the terrorists for 9/11 like originally planned (and no it was not never has been Bush! it was terrorists NON US terrorists)

One last thing to this comment "WHY THE FUCK MUST WE KILL OUR OWN KIND IN THE STUPID WAR FOR OIL?! " I don't get it, we are not killing Americans, we are killing Iraqians or whatever they are called. They are killing us too but we are not killing our own kind, just the foreigners. But I do agree it's stupid to go to war for oil.

Actually Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.
There are Christian terrorists to, there's even a group in Sweden!
And haven't you heard about IRA?
So the term "terrorist" that Americans use are indeed created by Americans.

And there are Christian terrorist-groups in America;
Army of God: Murders abortion doctors. They have performed over 30 bombings in the United States.

And the so called "American war against terrorism" has caused almost 100.000 deaths among civilians.
And i doubt that the Iraqis has killed 100.000 Americans!
After you see that number, you tell me who the real terrorists are?
Stormrider

Dante wrote:
Stormrider wrote:
" terrorsits don't exist. They have been created by G7 (at the time when they were only G7) mainly by the USA."

That's bull and you know it. Terrorists are NOT from America nor created by Americans. And no I will not read the Koran (no matter how it's spelled) cause I don't want to be associated with terrorists. Not all Muslims are terrorists but a lot are or want to be, that is A FACT. But let's try to be cool about this (And I admit I got pissed at your comments but I will try to remain calm, nor tell you not to state your opinions cause that would be wrong of me or anyone else. I can see we definitely do have different opinions, not saying yours is wrong and mine is right, we both really don't know)

I do agree though that the war in Iraq is bogus should have stayed in Afghanistan, to take revenge on the terrorists for 9/11 like originally planned (and no it was not never has been Bush! it was terrorists NON US terrorists)

One last thing to this comment "WHY THE FUCK MUST WE KILL OUR OWN KIND IN THE STUPID WAR FOR OIL?! " I don't get it, we are not killing Americans, we are killing Iraqians or whatever they are called. They are killing us too but we are not killing our own kind, just the foreigners. But I do agree it's stupid to go to war for oil.

Actually Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.
There are Christian terrorists to, there's even a group in Sweden!
And haven't you heard about IRA?
So the term "terrorist" that Americans use are indeed created by Americans.

And the so called "American war against terrorism" has caused almost 100.000 deaths among civilians.
And i doubt that the Iraqis has killed 100.000 Americans!
After you see that number, you tell me who the real terrorists are?


No Americans are still NOT the terrorists. Granted the Iragi civilians is bad it should have been Afghani civilians aka terrorists in progress. So oops on that one (they're Iraqies anyway probably were conditioned to hate America before this war started even with Bush Sr. IF YOU HATE AMERICA FOR ANY PATHETIC REASON YOU ARE AN ENEMY OF ME! America is still the best god damned country in the world! Don't you forget that!

No America did not create terrorists they have been around for ages has nothing to do with America, it is possible we may have created the term terrorists but we sure as hell didn't create them. Human life is meaningless be it man woman or child. I say kill all enemies especially the kids so that way they can't grow up to be terrorists.

I AM A PROUD AMERICAN FOR LIFE!!!!! Iraq war is stupid true, but other wars are necessary, with out them we would not have the freedoms we do now. Again the Iraq war has nothing to do with freedom, so I agree on that one. I never knew we had so much anti American Iced Earth fans here. You know they are an American band and proud of America right? Just like most folks they don't agree with the Iraq war but they had no problem with us in Afghanistan. Have you read the lyrics to "When The Eagle Cries"? One of the best patriotic songs ever!

This is turning into a heated debate. True if I could I would join up just to kill enemies (if we go back to actually fighting true enemies, not that Irag wasn't at one time our ememy). We can't kill folks legally unless we are in a war. I have plenty of non terrorist enemies here but I can't kill them, I'd like too, they don't deserve to live same with the enemies of America, be they American or not non of them deserve to live. To me I could care less about another human being, especially an enemy. Sorry if that's offensive to any one that's just the way I am.

Dante wrote:
Actually Islam has nothing to do with terrorism.

True Islam does not but lots of (Not all, not even the majorityl) Muslims do. I guess I misworded what I meant I didn't mean Islam itself just the terrorists who are Islamic. And true the Koran is probably not a terrorist handbook, but I'd still rather not read it cause frankly that religion urks me almost (not quite as bad) as christianity and I HAVE read that bible!
Dante

Isn't it weird for a satanist to love a country thats motto is "In God is our trust"?

And why do all Americans believe that Usama Bin Ladin is behind 9/11?
Is it because of the tape that he confess?
IT'S FUCKING FAKE!
He uses a RING in the video! It's like the worst thing a Muslim can do!
Stormrider

Dante wrote:
Isn't it weird for a satanist to love a country thats motto is "In God is our trust"?

And why do all Americans believe that Usama Bin Ladin is behind 9/11?
Is it because of the tape that he confess?
IT'S FUCKING FAKE!
He uses a RING in the video! It's like the worst thing a Muslim can do!


In god we trust is something that wasn't added til around the 40's or 50's it wasn't there when the four fathers drafted the constitution. Several of the writers of the constitution were NOT christian some were. My love for America is definitely not based on the recent christian take over (well not so recent like I said around the 40's or 50's, need to look it up).

As for Osama, Muslim or not, he IS behind it NOT BUSH! NOT AMERICA!! There is no FACTS at all to prove otherwise. But I digress.
Feaněs

the US goverment WAS involved in 9/11,  many reasons that proove this.
to say that amreica is the "best fuckin' country in the world"...how many countries have you seen?

I have no problem with a patriot like Jon, cause he knows what Amrica stands for, stood for, and he is proud caus of its history, proud of the idea behind the US, and he is surely proud of all the americans that haven't forgotten the past and the true meaning behind the "dream of america". But don't close your eyes, open them, too many things have gone wrong, too many people have been too patriotic and didn't saw the pain they caused.

The trut is, yes , USA is the greatest power on earth, but the time for change HAS come, it needs to happen NOW, cause your country is on its way down to the floor, like every big empire did before, just listen dude and try to think about how hard you want it to crush down, OBAMA will bring a lot of good things and try to push the USA out of its shit, if he will be succsesfull...who knows.
Set Abominae

Feaněs wrote:
The trut is, yes , USA is the greatest power on earth, but the time for change HAS come, it needs to happen NOW, cause your country is on its way down to the floor, like every big empire did before, just listen dude and try to think about how hard you want it to crush down


This can all be summed up in a [hey, look, s'more irony] an ICED EARTH song called Sacrificial Kingdoms.

Stormrider, while I agree that the US is the largest power in the world and I also think McCain should have been elected, it didn't happen. We can't change that now. We have to deal with Obama. And I don't have any pre-thoughts on what's going to happen now. It's up to us, not Obama. We still have the right to vote, the right to free speech and assembly, and countless other rights. When one of our many freedoms is taken away is when I'll be scared.

I do think, however, [but don't think for a second I support it!] that Obama will be assassinated. There are still racists in this world and if his security isn't quadrupled in the next 2 months he'll be a dead man. Then we'll be run by Biden [shudders].
The Wicked One

Alright, I wish this wasn't on this forum because I've had to deal with it already in RL.

what is scary to some is that he had been associated with a domestic terrorist. some1 who used to bomb his own country as well as be member of a church whos reverend said 'God Damn America'

this has nothing to do with why I voted for McCain.

Obama is basically a socialist. 'redistribute the wealth' is right along with his 1 word campaign for 'change'. Which the standard for being 'too rich' keeps lowering. It went from 300,000 to 250,000 to 200,000 and now even said to be 150,000 to be considered for a new tax hike.
This is a problem when a constantly changing platform forshadows. Will it lower some more? What other things will drastically 'change' from his original platform?

I am a conservative, usually associated with the Libertarian party. But that party will never win so I have to make sure that some1 who is almost 90% against my ideas doesn't make it to office. I lost.

For those of you who do not live in the United States need to understand a couple things.

Propaganda runs on both sides. You have fallen victim to it. Osama Bin laden is real. Or do accept the fact that September 11th was all a sham and thousands of innocents died just so we could later invade Iraq? That is just plain sick and you should be ashamed of yourselves.
That vid is full of crap and the reason why most countries were against the Coalition plan on Iraq was that they had trade agreements. 'Oil for food' ring a bell? France, Germany and Russia were the biggest benefiters for this.

What makes our country the greatest Nation in the world is that we have a checks and balance system. whereas many european nations are simply controlled by socialist ideas and politicians.
Right now the system is in dissaray since the Democrats own both the Executive Branch and Legsilative. But in a couple years it might change and no single power will hold my country.

THAT is what makes us who we are. WE are not you guys. WE don't need rely on other nation's economy by adopting the same currency. The world economy is low. When the United States rebounds over time, will the European Union be able to do the same?
The Sexiest Metalhead

Obama will do well, we need someone who isn't rebublican.
The Wicked One

The Sexiest Metalhead wrote:
Obama will do well, we need someone who isn't rebublican.



McCain isn't even republican....sheesh. probably 1 of the reasons he didn't win.

We haven't had a republican run since Regan.
Kanadwen

I thought China was the largest power in the world? Anyway, anyone who says "America is the greatest country in the world!" is stupid and pathetic. I remember having to write essays in school about the subject "Why is America the best country in the world?", I would write that it was a horrible topic, completely stupid, just a opinion, etc. etc.

Also, anyone who believes the government was involved in 9/11, that is very well your own opinion, a stupid one, but your own.

"accept the fact that September 11th was all a sham and thousands of innocents died just so we could later invade Iraq? That is just plain sick and you should be ashamed of yourselves. " - Couldn't agree more.



And as of politics, I do not choose to follow it, I don't like it. But, I'm not stupid it when it comes to it. Seeing Obama become President made me believe in my country again, showing that what our fore fathers wrote over 200 years ago, still stands today. I'm disgusted on what Bush gave our reputation overseas, I know Obama will change that.
Stormrider

Feaněs wrote:
the US goverment WAS involved in 9/11,  many reasons that proove this.
to say that amreica is the "best fuckin' country in the world"...how many countries have you seen?

I have no problem with a patriot like Jon, cause he knows what Amrica stands for, stood for, and he is proud caus of its history, proud of the idea behind the US, and he is surely proud of all the americans that haven't forgotten the past and the true meaning behind the "dream of america". But don't close your eyes, open them, too many things have gone wrong, too many people have been too patriotic and didn't saw the pain they caused.

The trut is, yes , USA is the greatest power on earth, but the time for change HAS come, it needs to happen NOW, cause your country is on its way down to the floor, like every big empire did before, just listen dude and try to think about how hard you want it to crush down, OBAMA will bring a lot of good things and try to push the USA out of its shit, if he will be succsesfull...who knows.


I have the exact same beliefs as Jon, why than do you say I am not a patriotic American? Just because I am more animate about it doesn't make me less American. This has gone on to be an "Let's fuck with the American and lie about his America and shit" which I hoped it wouldn't come to. Yes America is the greatest and I am offended at the fucker who called me pathetic and stupid. You better call Jon pathetic and stupid cause he believes in America same as I do. I am no different in my opinion in America whatsoever than Jon. Just cause I said a few things about Muslims and shit I get the "You are a pathetic fuck not a true proud American like Jon" bullshit. This was never intended to be offensive.

And I never said I hated Obama, just I know he has or had ties with radicals and such. That Obama quote about "handing government issued Korans" and the whole thing was a joke. Though I do believe he did or does as those ties I mentioned the rest was a joke as if you couldn't tell. He never said that quote. I do hope he does NOT get assassinated and DOES improve the country. Yes even though we ARE the greatest country in the world (any American who doesn't think so is the true pathetic stupid asshole, not me), America does have it's faults and I do indeed hope Obama can fix them.

My deal is I am too damn proud to be an American and I want folks to know this. A lot of my opinions may be considered offensive to some, and yes even some of my opinions are "assholish" if I can make up a word for that. I totally take offense when folks trash my Country. Especially if they are American. Non American's I can understand, they may not see the whole thing and only know what their media feeds them. If I made enemies here, so be it, that is not at all what my opinions were meant to do.

The simple solution is you don't have to agree or like what I say, nor I you, but I don't remember calling anyone names like stupid or pathetic here (any members that is) until this post but that was only in retaliation. Again when folks who are on an AMERICAN band's fan page trashes America, I feel they don't need to trash America or Americans (well ok you CAN trash G.W. Bush! Razz ) , but I won't tell them to leave simply because that is their opinion and regardless of what country they live in I feel they have a right to those opinons as do I mine. If you don't like America fine, let us let this discussion about America, Terrorists, 9/11, and Obama end here.

Like I said I didn't WANT to offend anyone, and I ended up getting offended. Again not my intentions at all. I still think we have a great community of Iced Earth fans here and we should all get along even if we have greatly differing and offensive opinions. I don't want to lose what we have had here, do any of you? I am sorry for some of the things I have said in this post, but again that is merely retaliation for what was probably indirectly or directly aimed at me, I could be wrong and if I am sorry once again. I still want to be friends with every one here. Hope we can continue with that.
Aggelos Poneros

Feaněs wrote:
the US goverment WAS involved in 9/11,  many reasons that proove this.
I love you.

Feaněs wrote:

The trut is, yes , USA is the greatest power on earth, but the time for change HAS come, it needs to happen NOW...
Nope, actually the greatest power on the earth at the moment is Russian Federation.

The Wicked One wrote:

Osama Bin laden is real.
He is not, know why? Because he doesn't even exist.

The Wicked One wrote:

Or do accept the fact that September 11th was all a sham and thousands of innocents died just so we could later invade Iraq?

Truth hurts.

Stormrider wrote:

Like I said I didn't WANT to offend anyone, and I ended up getting offended. Again not my intentions at all. I still think we have a great community of Iced Earth fans here and we should all get along even if we have greatly differing and offensive opinions. I don't want to lose what we have had here, do any of you? I am sorry for some of the things I have said in this post, but again that is merely retaliation for what was probably indirectly or directly aimed at me, I could be wrong and if I am sorry once again. I still want to be friends with every one here. Hope we can continue with that.

Well duhhhh, this is forum, ther's no need to have the same opinion as somebody. I mean, isn't that point of forums? To discuss things and different opinions?

P.s Stormrider, you still didn't answer on my 2 questions. XP
Oh yes, sorry for offending, but you ofended me really bad when you said all things about Muslims and terrorist. But you don't trust in God so there's actually NO WAY you can understand Islam. I was raised beetween both, my father is muslim and mum is catholic so I don't think of any's terrorist only beacuse he's muslim. My opinions is that religion is somebodys personal thing and I don't judge persons on the faith and belives.
Aggelos Poneros

Oh yes, I totaly forgot to mention two very important facts.
1) I don't have anything against the USA and my big dream is one day to work and live there.
2) I won't EVER forget how much USA (and Bill Clinton) helped us during last Balkan war. Bombing of Serbia was the best thing Clinton has ever done.
Of course he did it because Serbs have crushed few Americans planes but still, he helepd us  when whole Europe turned back to us. (this is also one of the reasnos why I don't like Great Britain and Switzerland even less)
Stormrider

To Aggelos Poneros:

First off, sorry. I should have not said the Koran is a terrorist book as we all know it is not. Second I understand how you misunderstood what I said. I know not ALL Muslims are terrorists, the sad fact is some are terrorists, you can't deny that. Just like we all know not all blacks are niggers, some are. Not all christians are judgmental, some are. Maybe I should have worded it better.

I am not really gonna say much on your not believing that Osama exists. That is your opinion and you are welcome to it. I believe he exists (no not trying to make him sound like god or Satan, that'd be an insult to Satan at least), I believe he is and not the US responsible for 9/11. There really has never been TANGIBLE proof to say other wise, plenty of propaganda disguised as proof, but that doesn't mean it's not true. Just cause I don't believe it doesn't mean it's not true. I mean I believe in both god and Satan, but yet neither have proof. At least the saying 9/11 was an inside job can possibly be proven if true, unlike god and Satan.

As for not answering two questions, sorry, don't know which questions you were referring too, so much went on here ya know. If you want to know, point them out or ask again, no problem.
Dante

The Wicked One wrote:

What makes our country the greatest Nation in the world is that we have a checks and balance system. whereas many european nations are simply controlled by socialist ideas and politicians.
Right now the system is in dissaray since the Democrats own both the Executive Branch and Legsilative. But in a couple years it might change and no single power will hold my country.

Democrats owning 2 branches? What does that mean?
That means that your system has failed!
And I don't see how that makes you the greatest nation in the world?!?

Everyone knows that Communist China or Russia is the greatest nations in the world!
Kanadwen

Dante wrote:
Everyone knows that Communist China or Russia is the greatest nations in the world!


I knew China was! Razz IMO, USA is equal or greater than Russia.
The Wicked One

communism has failed the russians are still recovering from the cold war.

Aggelos, what proof do you have that Osama is not real? Would you accept the fact of your country killing thousands of your ppl to start a war years later with a country on the other side of the globe? Its un-ethical and not profitable in any sense. The World Trade center's destruction took a massive toll on the economy. If this was for economic growth I don't see how any1 devious enough to plan such a thing would make so many mistakes in planning.
In any sense tell Jon Shaffer that 9/11 is a sham and that his government killed thousands of their own ppl by racially profiling Arabs to hijack 3 planes to destroy not only the Twin Towers but the Pentagon.
Do you realize how full of shit that is? We want war but to start it we are gonna cripple our economy and military?Laughing


you want to look at the shit china is doing? they are releasing shit products to every1. for example their shit steel, which hurts the American industry when German or British steel raises their prices. they basically throw in coke cans and random shit for steel used for specific actions that require a purer chemical makeup. Anyone who knows metalurgy cringes at the chinese industry.

Our system hasn't failed since 4 years from now elections will be made. preventing 1 political view to hold dominance for so long to do any permanent damage. Whats that say when most conservative parties in Europe have little to no say in anything? you guys economically fighting for more than 50 years to compete with the American economy? Your combination of nations in the European Union only barely surpasses the prowess of 1 country?


Dante: To have stagnation is what the fathers of the constitution wanted. that while there will be changes, it will take  a LONG ass time or their are fail-safes via checks an balance system.

with this the failures of democracy and the eventual destruction of all Republics in history do not apply.

constitutional monarchies, dictatorships, aristocratic governments, communism, pure democracies, pure republics all have had more than a few government changing rebellions, coup de tas, reigns of terror, and extremist changovers to other given systems of Government. Look at France, Germany, and Russia and all the changes they went through. All the ppl who lost their rights/lives in the process of during the reign or transition.

America in terms of Government has done that 3 times in history. Each led to a creation of a nation, then grow into a stronger nation, then socially change their veiws on race.

Revolution
Shay's Rebellion
Civil War.

after that though, who was it that basically gave their lives to help Europe in WWI and WW2, fight the cold war and prevent puppet nations from being born under communism?
Dante

The Wicked One wrote:

Aggelos, what proof do you have that Osama is not real? Would you accept the fact of your country killing thousands of your ppl to start a war years later with a country on the other side of the globe? Its un-ethical and not profitable in any sense. The World Trade center's destruction took a massive toll on the economy. If this was for economic growth I don't see how any1 devious enough to plan such a thing would make so many mistakes in planning.
In any sense tell Jon Shaffer that 9/11 is a sham and that his government killed thousands of their own ppl by racially profiling Arabs to hijack 3 planes to destroy not only the Twin Towers but the Pentagon.
Do you realize how full of shit that is? We want war but to start it we are gonna cripple our economy and military?Laughing


Look at that picture!
You see that ring on his finger? It's fucking forbidden to use rings in Islam! Someone faked this, and failed badly.

And can some of you tell me how the towers could fall to the ground as fast as it would fall through the air?
And it fell 'cause of the fire right?
Ever seen the skyscrape fire in Madrid? It burnt for 10+ hours and didn't collapse!
And your "high quality" American steel-framed building collapsed after 2 hours?

Madrid fire.
Kanadwen

LOL
The Wicked One

Dante wrote:
The Wicked One wrote:

Aggelos, what proof do you have that Osama is not real? Would you accept the fact of your country killing thousands of your ppl to start a war years later with a country on the other side of the globe? Its un-ethical and not profitable in any sense. The World Trade center's destruction took a massive toll on the economy. If this was for economic growth I don't see how any1 devious enough to plan such a thing would make so many mistakes in planning.
In any sense tell Jon Shaffer that 9/11 is a sham and that his government killed thousands of their own ppl by racially profiling Arabs to hijack 3 planes to destroy not only the Twin Towers but the Pentagon.
Do you realize how full of shit that is? We want war but to start it we are gonna cripple our economy and military?Laughing


Look at that picture!
You see that ring on his finger? It's fucking forbidden to use rings in Islam! Someone faked this, and failed badly.

And can some of you tell me how the towers could fall to the ground as fast as it would fall through the air?
And it fell 'cause of the fire right?
Ever seen the skyscrape fire in Madrid? It burnt for 10+ hours and didn't collapse!
And your "high quality" American steel-framed building collapsed after 2 hours?

Madrid fire.



remember science buddy, a plane colliding into a building has completely different physics. different levels of heat, thats why the second tower fell first because the aerodynamics of how the 2nd plane went into the building. the melted steel from those levels fell downward into the lower ones, thats why the foundation was still there but impaled by the debris.

that and Osama is not representing Islam. He simply uses that to brainwash others to his cause, or do want him to legitly be Islam's voice?

That and look at the kings of Saudi Arabia, they got da bling bro.

full of FAIL
Dante

Steel melts at 2,700 degrees.
And fuel can't produce more than 1800 degrees heat!
That proves that the steel didn't melt!

Even if it would melt it still couldn't fall as fast as it would through air.
It's simple physics.
Set Abominae

Dante wrote:
Steel melts at 2,700 degrees.
And fuel can't produce more than 1800 degrees heat!
That proves that the steel didn't melt!

Even if it would melt it still couldn't fall as fast as it would through air.
It's simple physics.


The structural integrity of the World Trade Center depends on the closely spaced columns around the perimeter. Lightweight steel trusses span between the central elevator core and the perimeter columns on each floor. These trusses support the concrete slab of each floor and tie the perimeter columns to the core, preventing the columns from buckling outwards.

After the initial plane impacts, it appeared to most observers that the structures had been severely damaged, but not necessarily fatally.

It appears likely that the impact of the plane crash destroyed a significant number of perimeter columns on several floors of the building, severely weakening the entire system. Initially this was not enough to cause collapse.

However, as fire raged in the upper floors, the heat would have been gradually affecting the behaviour of the remaining material. As the planes had only recently taken off, the fire would have been initially fuelled by large volumes of jet fuel, which then ignited any combustible material in the building. While the fire would not have been hot enough to melt any of the steel, the strength of the steel drops markedly with prolonged exposure to fire, while the elastic modulus of the steel reduces (stiffness drops), increasing deflections.

Modern structures are designed to resist fire for a specific length of time. Safety features such as fire retarding materials and sprinkler systems help to contain fires, help extinguish flames, or prevent steel from being exposed to excessively high temperatures. This gives occupants time to escape and allow fire fighters to extinguish blazes, before the building is catastrophically damaged.

It is possible that the blaze, started by jet fuel and then engulfing the contents of the offices, in a highly confined area, generated fire conditions significantly more severe than those anticipated in a typical office fire. These conditions may have overcome the building's fire defenses considerably faster than expected. It is likely that the water pipes that supplied the fire sprinklers were severed by the plane impact, and much of the fire protective material, designed to stop the steel from being heated and losing strength, was blown off by the blast at impact.

Eventually, the loss of strength and stiffness of the materials resulting from the fire, combined with the initial impact damage, would have caused a failure of the truss system supporting a floor, or the remaining perimeter columns, or even the internal core, or some combination. Failure of the flooring system would have subsequently allowed the perimeter columns to buckle outwards. Regardless of which of these possibilities actually occurred, it would have resulted in the complete collapse of at least one complete story at the level of impact.

Once one story collapsed all floors above would have begun to fall. The huge mass of falling structure would gain momentum, crushing the structurally intact floors below, resulting in catastrophic failure of the entire structure. While the columns at say level 50 were designed to carry the static load of 50 floors above, once one floor collapsed and the floors above started to fall, the dynamic load of 50 stories above is very much greater, and the columns at each level were almost instantly destroyed as the huge upper mass fell to the ground.

It's simple physics.
The Wicked One

Dante got pwn3d

Oh btw if you Euros like Bill so much why do accept the fact that he acknowledged the presence of Osama? Apparently he 'warned' Bush about Osama before Bush came to office. seeing as how they tried once before in 96 by having a bomb go off in the foundation of 1 of the towers.

This might be too old for you guys to remember since after-all you live in countries on the other side of the pond but still think you know everything about my country in every government aspect.
Dante

Some of the energy will be used to shatter the floors below. And that will cause a delay. And that delay would be much more than 0,1 second each floor.
Remember the materials below the 50th floor weren't effected by the heat.
The Wicked One

but the height from which the materials fell with the given of the free-fall of the materials with the momentum of gravity kinda makes it a giant jack hammer.

If you look at it didn't fall down all at once. the second tower had more material to have fall down (plane hit almost the middle) so it crumbled at a faster rate than the 1st tower, which not only took longer to collapse but even the process of falling was delayed reaction.
paranoidmexican

hey guys, lets keep this on topic. and play nice, i'd hate to have to start being a jerk and warning people and whatnot. i know no one is flaming anyone, but if it happens i won't tolerate it. attack ideas, not people. a heated debate is fine by me, but flaming/insulting other members will NOT be tolerated.

whew! glad i got that outta my chest.

as far as the election goes, i just hope Obama does a good job
Kanadwen

We're all mature here, I think we can handle it!

OR CAN WE!?!??!

:O
paranoidmexican

if not you'll get suspended for a week Wink and I KNOW YOU CAN"T LIVE WITHOUT MINIONS OF THE WATCH
Feaněs

well I think we don't have to discuss the 9/11 anymore, cause that is actually OFF topic. All I have to say to that point, is that it IS a tragedy and even if you do NOT believe it, I feel very sorry for all the people that died.
and things cannot be changed anymore, I DO belive that the goverment "knew" about it or was somehow involved, but I do NOT think that they caused it.

I hope obama does his thing and tries to make true what he promised, cause it will effect the whole world, also europe...
Aggelos Poneros

Feaněs wrote:
well I think we don't have to discuss the 9/11 anymore, cause that is actually OFF topic. All I have to say to that point, is that it IS a tragedy and even if you do NOT believe it, I feel very sorry for all the people that died.
and things cannot be changed anymore, I DO belive that the goverment "knew" about it or was somehow involved, but I do NOT think that they caused it.

I hope obama does his thing and tries to make true what he promised, cause it will effect the whole world, also europe...


F*ck. I wanted to notice 9, 81 seconds XP
HAHA.

Anyhow, does anyone think that Obama will really change anything?
Kanadwen

Aggelos Poneros wrote:
Anyhow, does anyone think that Obama will really change anything?


He won for a reason...yes, I'm positive he will turn the nation around! He's the next JFK people say.
Dante

Sorry for going off-topic guys but this is fun to discuss!


This is what one of the designers of WTC said in 1985~
“A previous analysis, carried out early in 1964, calculated that the towers would handle the impact of a 707 traveling at 600 mph without collapsing”

and in 1993

“[Building designer] John Skilling recounts his people having carried out an analysis which found the twin towers could withstand the impact of a Boeing 707. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed.” But, he says, “The building structure would still be there.”

The Wicked One wrote:

remember science buddy, a plane colliding into a building has completely different physics. different levels of heat, thats why the second tower fell first because the aerodynamics of how the 2nd plane went into the building. the melted steel from those levels fell downward into the lower ones, thats why the foundation was still there but impaled by the debris.

Then why did building 7 fall?
It wasn't hit by an airplane.




And look at all these warnings US got before the 9/11 http://www.americanhiroshima.com/911warnings.htm
Set Abominae

Dante wrote:
“[Building designer] John Skilling recounts his people having carried out an analysis which found the twin towers could withstand the impact of a Boeing 707. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed.” But, he says, “The building structure would still be there.”


The buildings were hit with 757s.

Dante wrote:
Then why did building 7 fall?
It wasn't hit by an airplane.


The conspiracy theorists claim that "seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: 'The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition: amongst the Internet investigators, the jury is in on this one.' "

Here's an explanation by PopularMechanics.com

'Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom — approximately 10 stories — about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building's failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors — along with the building's unusual construction — were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse. '
Aggelos Poneros

9, 81 seconds!
Very Happy
Dante

Set Abominae wrote:
Dante wrote:
“[Building designer] John Skilling recounts his people having carried out an analysis which found the twin towers could withstand the impact of a Boeing 707. Our analysis indicated the biggest problem would be the fact that all the fuel (from the airplane) would dump into the building. There would be a horrendous fire. A lot of people would be killed.” But, he says, “The building structure would still be there.”


The buildings were hit with 757s.

Dante wrote:
Then why did building 7 fall?
It wasn't hit by an airplane.


The conspiracy theorists claim that "seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: 'The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition: amongst the Internet investigators, the jury is in on this one.' "

Here's an explanation by PopularMechanics.com

'Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom — approximately 10 stories — about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building's failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors — along with the building's unusual construction — were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse. '

Larry Silverstein (The owner of the 3 buildings that collapsed) said that they "pulled it". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WYdAJQV100
And how do you explain the picture?

And a Boeing 707 weighs more than a 757!
paranoidmexican

what did i say about going off topic? if you guys want to talk about 9/11 then make another topic
Kanadwen

paranoidmexican wrote:
guys want to talk about 9/11 then make another topic


Easy fix, this thread is now a 9/11 thread as well.
paranoidmexican

not what i had in mind
Aggelos Poneros

-.-
I have to explain everything, do I?
For the last time: 9,81 seconds.
Gravitation, right? XP
It needed 9,81 sec for buildings to crush down. What means they didn't fall because od planes.
paranoidmexican

so i asked for someone to make a separate thread for this and no one listens, thanks

this thread is closed

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